Katharine Leslie
Katharine P. Leslie has a doctorate in developmental psychology, and is certified as a “family life educator” by the National Council on Family Relations. Through her company Brand New Day Counsulting, she offers seminars, in-home and telephone “parent coaching” services, and sells her self-published books, When a Stranger Calls You Mom (2004) and Coming to Grips with Attachment (2007).
Leslie describes herself as the “adoptive mother of four special needs children.” She and her husband, Steve Case, at one time hosted an internet podcast called the “Dr Mama and Psychodad Show.” She and two other mothers form “MaTrio,” a group offering what they call entertaining educational presentations.
Leslie claims to have a “novel approach for activating the social engagement circuitry of traumatized children.” She frequently presents continuing-education classes around the country, and her offerings are advertised by the American Psychological Association. She is a keynoter for several Attachment Therapy-related conferences, including that of the Association for Treatment and Training in the Attachment of Children (ATTACh) and the Attachment Disorder Network (now called the Attachment & Trauma Network)
In Her Own Words
— Most Telling —
So we’ve had some bad press. We actually had rebirthing banned in North Carolina. Which was fine. Nobody was doing it anyway. They were worried that if they banned rebirthing, the next thing they would go onto was holding. We’ll talk about why we wouldn’t like that to happen. We wouldn’t want that banned. — “Attachment and Bonding: New Strategies and Interventions” (Eau Claire, WI: PESI Healthcare, 2006, audio compact disks)
[O]ne of the techniques of holding work is wrapping the child in what they call a Butterfly Wrap, where … they drape the blanket over the arms, and it’s wrapped something like a straight jacket. And the whole body is cocooned. … Because if they can flail, they’ll flail, even though they don’t really want to flail. It’s sort of knee-jerk reaction of fear. If we can hold them in and keep their bodies still, and sometimes you can’t do that by holding them, because they’ll hurt you. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
You actually have to start [adopted/foster children] out in a similar situation that they came from … a very sort of stark, you know, bare environment. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[S]ince I’ve had [my adopted son] on boardership, he has come up to me several times, because I actually gave them this list. I said, “In case you guys are wondering what it is you’re supposed to be giving to me, here it is.”…
[from audience member:] By giving him the list and the way he responds to you, do you feel like it’s a genuine response?
[Leslie] I could give a shit.
[audience member:] Really?
[Leslie] Yeah. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships: What’s missing,” Association for the Treatment and Training of Attachment in Children, 15th Annual International Conference, 27 Sep 2003, Pittsburgh, PA (Brookfield, VT: Resourceful Recordings, 2003), session #D3-7
…I only took care of the most basic, fundamental, infant needs, and forced dependency on [the child]. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
If I’m in the parent-child relationship … we have to word things a little bit differently. We can’t do this praise thing … Our kids will do this: “Look at what I drew, Mom!” And what do we do? “Oh, honey, that’s great.” Not me. I say, “Yeah? And? What do I care? That’s nothing to me.…” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
Yes. [My own adopted children] are absolutely afraid of me. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…[T]eaching the child how to please his father in the relationship, which I believe to be the best intervention for the child. — “Parents can be stuck just like the kids,” Reactive Attachment Disorder Blog (24 Jan 2007, accessed 21 May 2007) 
I’ve released people from doing snuggle time. You feel sick to your stomach? You feel like you’re a prostitute? Stop doing it. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…You got a kid who feels no guilt, and all kinds of shame, and has high self-esteem — overly high self-esteem. You got a problem. Knock them down. Knock them down. We want to move them into the guilt stage. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
In the old framework, we include the child as if the child is a family member … When I say to parents no, you don’t treat the child like your other children — your other children have earned that place in your family — this child has not. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— Holding Therapy —
Holding. Anybody here hold? Anybody admit to it? — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[E]xtremely disturbed children … may benefit from intense reattachment therapies. — “Response to Shane: Children who lie and steal,”Fostering Perspectives: Views on Foster Care in North Carolina, Fall 1998, 3(1): 
[W]hen a known person restricts a traumatized child’s bodily movement, the child feels rage and fear. … [T]he therapist must hold the child to assure the child he has nothing to fear from her and no need to run away. Therefore, what seems intuitive — don’t hold a traumatized child against his will, is actually counterintuitive — you need to hold a traumatized child who is raging or he will go on believing he has something to fear. … And the holding may induce a bonding event that can enhance attachment. — “You’ve got to know when to hold ’em” [excerpted from When a Stranger Calls You Mom], DeborahHage.com (2004, accessed 11 Jun 2007) 
[S]ome of these therapists will still do wrapping the child and then holding the child in the cradle position … so that the child can relax, knowing that nobody can touch their body, first of all. And that they don’t have to flail and … try and get away. … So it can be a very powerful lesson for the child to have that experience of being wrapped. I mean, can you imagine it yourself? … I’d be like, “I’m going to punch you in the face if you try that.” … I think it could be a very, a very terrifying experience. … I mean, I’m not even sure I’d want my husband to do that … So there is a huge leap for the child to be able to have to do this. It’s like those trust exercises. Remember EST? — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
My husband used to grab [my adopted son] by the hand … “We’re going to go snuggle! You know. Come on, you!” And they would manage; make it through it. And it would be good for them. But you know, after doing that for … five years. And you’re still not getting these positive behaviors back! — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[T]he therapist will have the child lay across their lap … And the child is a little uncomfortable … [T]he healthy kids would not be okay with this. Healthy kids are like, “Why am I doing this?! What?! I don’t want to lay across your lap!” But these kids don’t seem to mind this too much. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[T]he person who calls himself an Attachment Therapist basically is not under this premise of building rapport and trust with the child. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[The therapist’s] goal is to get the truth out, get it out fast, and start working on it. … And what may look mean to you, is actually just being honest with the child. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
It was actually during this therapy that one of my children revealed his sexual abuse history. — “You’ve Got to Know When to Hold ’em” (2004)
— Alarms on Bedroom Doors—
— School —
— “It’s All About Me” —
I also told [my three oldest adopted children] I was going to stop hiding my relationship with [my youngest adopted child]. I’m not going to sneak her into my bedroom to hug her and kiss her up all over. Nope. Just going to do it right there in the open! Because they all tell me anyway, “You love her best.” And I say, “You got that wrong. She loves me best. She’s the one who loves me. You guys don’t. … She’s coming to me, I’m not going to her! She pulls her plate and chair over by me at dinner time. ‘Feed me again, mom.’” … She comes to me. She loves me best. It’s all about me! — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
If I’m in the parent-child relationship, and I want to teach him how to be in a parent-child relationship, I’m going to make it about me. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
As I said earlier, my [youngest] daughter comes to me most of the time. She come to me to be by me. To love me. To get close to me. Just to be near me. Sometimes she drags her toys and books into my office and lays down on the floor. She’s not bugging me. She’s not saying, “Mommy, look at me. Mommy, look at this.” No. She just wants to be near me. And she’s engaging me. I’m not engaging her. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[N]either of my boys has come to my room to tuck me in at night and give me a hug and a kiss before I go to bed.… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[T]hat whole philosophy of Love and Logic, I completely buy into. You know why? It’s good for me. I don’t care whether it’s good for them anymore. I care about whether it’s good for me. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Boardership —
What I did was I put [my adopted children] on boardership. It means that they are entitled to certain things in my home: their rooms, food, shelter, opportunities for education, medical care. They are not entitled to me. And they’re not entitled to anything I own, which is basically everything in the house. … And maybe you’re welcome to use my kitchen, you know; it sort of depends on what’s going on. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
My children’s behaviors are under control. That is not the problem. I learned well from Nancy Thomas and everybody. I’ve been doing this — I’ve had them for seven years. Their behaviors are not the problem. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
I sat [three of my adopted children] down. “I’m taking a break from you guys. I don’t know how long it’s going to be. It might be a week. It might be a month. It might be the rest of your childhood. I don’t know, and I’m serious. I don’t know.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[T]hat’s what quitting means. I’m no longer your mom. I’m not going to be your mom for a while. I’m sort of your … landlord. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
My boys have spent not a dime to buy time with me. My daughter — my 15 year old — buys time with me often. So she wants to play Rummy-Q, or she wants me to take her someplace or something like that, she pays me my 50 cents. And she does her chores pretty nicely. And she’s actually in pretty good shape. She just did something that really ticked me off… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Parent Coach —
…Here’s what you can do with your clients. You can say: Let’s pick three ‘start’ behaviors. Look at the list of positive behaviors. What would you like? What really hits you? What strikes you? Pick something. Go ahead and pick something. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…I work with tons of parents — some who I’m sure were neurotic, who were pathological, and yet we all come up with the same stuff.… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
So, [the parents] can make the shift, but they’re not doing the creative piece yet. I’m still doing the creative piece for them. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— “Attachment Disorder” —
[M]any of our children suffer from attachment problems. … They lie, sneak, cheat, hate, charm, trick, manipulate, hurt before being hurt, trust no one at any cost, and try to control every situation. Love no one. — “Response to Shane” (1998)
A lot of the therapists I know. What they’re doing — they’re just diagnosing other things, but they’re treating it as an Attachment Disorder. So as they send it to the insurance company, they’re calling it something else. Anxiety Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress — those aren’t red flags to the insurance company. But boy, you say Attachment Disorder and — Booong! The red flag is up. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
We know if we’ve got these 30 from the RADQ that we’ve got a kid who has what Liz [Randolph] would call Attachment Disorder. Not Reactive Attachment Disorder. The RADQ was never meant to diagnose Reactive Attachment Disorder. It was meant to diagnosis Attachment Disorder! … score over 65, they have Attachment Disorder. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[T]ypically we have them fill out [the RADQ] before they start therapy — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
Having gone through a developmental psych program all the way through grad school. … And we never talked about Attachment Disorder ever. How could that happen? — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— On Birth Parents —
[T]hey cannot love their birth mom, parents, because their birth parents are not in relationship with them. That’s not love. Nope. Has to be a dyad in order for it to be love. And it could be in a fantasy world. You know. It could be in his brain. But the idea of it. That’s a fantasy. It’s not real. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Forced Age Regression —
When I’m working with families with very young children, we have put in place the regression interventions very quickly… — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
Regression. … I’m not talking about hypnotic regression, but real regression, where the child is regressed back to an earlier stage of development, typically infancy if we can … [T]he child has to stay at arm’s length at all times with the parent. And we take over all basic needs of the child. So, in other words, even if the child is old enough to feed themselves, clothe themselves, wash themselves, we take over all of those activities. Now if the child’s a teenager, you’re not going to be able clothe them and bath them … You can always feed the child, whatever age. … [I]nitially they’re snarling at you. They want to spit it right back in your face. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[My adopted child is] now eight and a half and she still asks me to feed her sometimes … “Because that’s the only way it gets mommy love in it.” So clearly, this was, you know, very meaningful. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
When we regressed [my adopted daughter], we didn’t let another adult touch her. … Not the grandparents. Nobody. The other children were not allowed to soothe her. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
Put her back on a bottle … I bathed her. I had the best time, because I never had an infant. And when I remember her saying, “I want to do this now, mom.” “No! I’m not ready!” and she didn’t fight me. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
I think regression is one of the most powerful tools we have, and especially if the child is young enough that you can carry them. … Her feet didn’t touch the ground for about three months. I also force-fed her. When I say that, I mean I forced eye contact with feeding. So she didn’t get to feed herself. I fed her, and when I fed her she had to look at me. … It’s kind of a desensitization model. I held her against her will.… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…I think it’s the therapist’s job to guide you through that regression process. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Love —
You take care of the child’s basic needs. Food, shelter, clothes. You do not emotionally engage the child, from the perspective of falling in love. Don’t go there. You will be sorry. And you will do this kid no good. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
Expecting love should be reserved for a permanent family. — “Response to Shane” (1998)
— Coaching Children —
[W]e teach children to love us, by putting the feeling in them, and saying, “Oh, that’s how you feel about me. Of course you do. I just fed you. That makes sense.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
“Oh, you’re chattering again. You’re worried that you don’t exist.” Now some people will say but how do you know what they’re thinking? I don’t. But I know better than they do. I can certainly guess at it better than them. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
You say to the child, “Put a big smile on your face and run to me because that’s what you feel right now. You feel happy.” And when the child does it, you say, “Oops, I guess you didn’t feel it. That’s okay. I could tell. I didn’t feel it. … Try again tomorrow.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…And you say, “Oh, that was a good try. That was fake. But that’s okay. You’re still feeling scared. That wasn’t real. You gave it an effort. And that was nice. And but you know, you don’t have to bother.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
Coach or cue positive/truthful verbal interactions… — Coach [“]It’s really hard and scary to be me.” “Go.” — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006), p. 34 of slideshow
[I]f the child does not respond to the cue the … parent is unresponsive to the child until the child takes action — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006), p. 34 of slideshow
— Talking to Children —
These children, when I work with them, will come right up to hug me. I stick my hand out and put it on their forehead, and I say, “Noooo. You know where to go if you want a hug … You’re not hugging me! I’m not your mom. Go away!” But who else is going to say that to a kid except me? — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
I’m sitting with the girls … and I said, “So. I thought you should know that I talked to your parents, and they are having a perfectly lovely time without you. They’re just loving it. They’re having the best time of their lives.” … Their faces freaked me out. It was like how could you not know that, that your parents are happier without you? — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
So if my child is screaming and yelling and throwing herself on the floor, and I say, “Oh, that’s the best fit you’ve thrown all day. [clapping] I love that one.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
I told one kid just recently, “Don’t. Stop calling your parents ‘mom’ and ‘dad.’ And stop telling them you love them. You don’t! Stupid. Call them ‘Miss Beth’ and ‘Mr. This.’ — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— On (Not) Engaging Children —
I think that’s where we’ve gone with traumatized kids. We’ve made it incredibly easy for them to get their needs met. Because we’re always engaging them. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…That’s what I’m asking you to do. Step back. And don’t engage the child. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
We’re going to give affection only in response to the child’s real demonstration of affection. Again, we’re talking about the child coming to you, as opposed to you going to the child. Because if you go to the child, the child gets their needs met and they will not reciprocate. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
Do not ask the child any questions… — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006), p. 34 of slideshow
When lying takes place, don’t confront your child with whether he did it, just assume that he did. — “Response to Shane” (1998)
— “Bonding Events” —
…It’s one of the reasons why it’s difficult when you take in or adopt an older child, because there was no bonding event. So with our kids, we used to take them to scary places. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
I loved it when they would get sick. That’s when I would really take advantage of them, because their defenses would drop and I could pull them in and snuggle them and they’d let me, because they were just so weak and helpless at that point. Right? I used that as a bonding event to then activate attachment behaviors. Who would think of such nutty things? — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— The “Needs Cycle” —
Parent-Child Needs Cycle … If the baby cries and nobody comes … They give up and they start to shut down. They start to shut down from the neck down. They stop feeling their bodily urges, functions, needs… — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— More Pseudoscience —
The birth experience is a bonding event that then activates certain attachment in the infant… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…I find that a lot of these kids have one sense that tends to be the one that is the predominant sense, and others ones just are a waste … like they don’t even exist. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
We start with EMDR … [M]etrenome therapy … Wow! So this can be very profound. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[T]apping (EMDR) and moving the body (somatic therapy) are accepted techniques in relieving symptoms of PTSD and for processing preverbal memories. — “You’ve Got to Know When to Hold ’em” (2004)
Theraplay is a fairly intrusive, physically intrusive, non-verbal therapeutic intervention, which is really great for kids who are intrusive and non-verbal! Theraplay can be used to assess the child’s ability to take instruction from an authority figure. And if they don’t do that, you’ve got a problem. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— Paradox? —
Paradoxical [Therapy] … One time I had a foster kid. He just loved to curse. … I put him in my lap. He was about eleven at the time. … And I just started talking to him, and I was like, “So you f--ing do this f--ing thing.” I’m just going on and on. … Not everyone’s willing to do that. … Nobody can f--ing curse more than I can. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— “In the Moment”: Dismissing a Child’s Efforts —
What’s hard about it is that sometimes they actually do the right thing. And then … you’re tricked. Because you think, “See he does know.” And what I suggest to you is that was an accident. When they actually get it right, it’s an accident. … Because sometimes my husband will say, “Well, see when there’s going to be a party, [my child] will clean, you know, do his chore properly.” And he thinks he’s doing this purposely. And I’m thinking, “No, I betcha something’s clicked on his brain, because there’s going to be a party.” And it’s not motivation. … There’s a neurotransmitter that kicks in and says, “There’s going to be a party. I’m so excited!” And then he starts doing his chore right, because that neurotransmitter’s there. Not because he’s making a conscious effort to do it right. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
— Leslie’s Paradigm Shift —
…[H]uge paradigm shift: Forget about what you’re suppose to give to the child. You just suppose to be taking care of their basic needs. We’re going to focus on what that kid’s supposed to be giving to you. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
[T]here will be a positive correlation between relationship quality and positive behaviors — regardless of the number, I think, of negative behaviors. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
So I’m making this hypothesis that the negative and positive behaviors are actually on a separate continuum. I haven’t figured out all the details yet of how we’re going to actually figure out the intensity and duration and frequency. … Is it sheer numbers? Is it the quantity or the quality? I don’t know yet. Maybe that will come out. I’m hoping to incorporate that into the research projects so that maybe some of those questions can be answered. But right now they can’t be answered because we haven’t researched it yet. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Leslie “Survey Tool” —
I’m going to show you a survey tool I’ve created… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
So first you collect your data. … And then you figure out what you’re going to do with it. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…I’m interested in what [children] provide in the relationship. So things like enthusastic, attractive, socially competent, good sense of humor, independent, you know — those things are irrelevant… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
I asked parents of “normal” kids. Birth kids. To tell me what makes them happy, satisfied and proud to be a parent … I absolutely hit saturation when I got about 70 parents. I just wasn’t getting anything new. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
One of the ones I put in there that nobody else did was: “She smells my hair like it’s a flower.” Isn’t that sweet! Ahhh. “Smells my hair like it’s a flower.” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
Therapists can use the survey tool to inform their practices. … [R]ight now, it’s not standardized. It’s not anything. It’s just descriptive information. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— “Parent Tip Strips” —
I’ve actually written some things that relate to this called “Parent Tip Strips.” And what they are are little book markers. And they’re the before and after.…
[On one side] The girl’s shopping with her mom. The teenage girl. And she says, “What do you think, mom?” And the mom’s like, “Oh, gosh, I don’t know.” And she says, “Mom, all the girls wear this.” You know, it’s one of those Brittany Spears kind of outfits. She says, “It seems so tight and short.” And the girl says, “Oh come on, mom, please!” And the mother says, “Well, oh, I guess it’s alright.” And the mother gives in. So the mother is swayed … into doing something that is really not very parent-like.
[On the flip side] the girl says, “What do you think, Mom?” And the mom says, “I love it!” And the daughter says, “You do?” getting suspicious. And the mother says, “Yes, I can borrow it when I want to have sex with your dad!” And the little girl turns around and goes, “Ooo, gross” and walks back to the dressing room.
— “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
You can actually buy [Parent Tip Strips] and put your logo on one corner of it. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
— Name Dropping —
My children’s behaviors are under control. That is not the problem. I learned well from Nancy Thomas… — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
You limit the possibilities for negative behavior which means you might want to use that Federici model. Because if you completely limit the child’s environment, you’re going to have far less behavior problems. — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
…I said to Dan Hughes the other day. I said, “Dan, if I have to snuggle one of these kids one more time, I’m going to kill him!” — “Traumatized children’s parent-child relationships” (2003)
[W]hat Liz [Randolph] does — this is so fascinating — in her research, what she has found, is that because these children oftentimes have underdeveloped corpus callosum, primarily because they didn’t get a lot of cross-crawl movements when they were little. … Just doing these cross-crawl movements — opposite hand, opposite leg — develops the corpus callosum. It’s so easy! — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
Foster Cline talked about this years and years and years ago … One of the first people to kind of develop this whole idea of Attachment Disorder from Bowlby’s work … Foster Cline said that when you bring one of these children into your home, it’s like importing pathology into your home … Everybody gets sick. … It’s like living in the Twilight Zone. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
Bill Goble … was doing a training session … And people would come in from all over the country. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
I’m going to be citing Holly Van Gulden … She’s really wonderful and one of my mentors. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
And you don’t hug and kiss the child and overwhelm them. Because what they will do is what Bettelheim said: They will fake it. They will accept it. And they will start their little business of woeing you and schmoozing you and pretending a fantasy world that they can’t possibly live out for real. — “New Strategies and Interventions” (2006)
